Insightly_Ep07_final
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Alyssa and Jordan: [00:00:00] Hey, everyone. Welcome back to Insightly. I hope everyone's having a great summer. ~I cannot believe literally next week is July. Insane. Yeah, I'm not ready. Yeah, me either. ~We're really excited because today we have an interview. We have never done an interview episode before. We have Wichita's local Ted Kriwiel with us.

And I'm gonna let him introduce himself, but we just feel privileged to get to have him with us today because

Ted: I mean, two data

Alyssa and Jordan: I mean, two data nerds isn't enough. You always had to bring in a third one. And so Ted, why don't you tell us a little bit about yourself, set ~some, ~some context, some groundwork, and [00:01:00] we'll go from there.

Ted: there.

Well, first, I did not realize I was the first interview.

Alyssa and Jordan: Yeah.

Ted: am honored to be the first interview.

Alyssa and Jordan: when Alyssa and I talked about, we wanted to bring in other experts or people that work in data to talk from their perspective. You were the very first name that we thought of. And we thought people were probably tired of hearing just us

Ted: never. I really hope this is not your last interview with someone.

I really hope

Alyssa and Jordan: We have more planned.

Ted: good. Good. My name is Ted. I'm from Wichita. I've worked with a lot of companies on data and building software. I've spent the last five years at Moonbase Labs. And I actually just left. So I'm on the move right now. I'm not sure what I'm going to do next. I'm pretty entrepreneurial, but I'm kind of just looking at what do I want to do now?

But I think I'm certain that data will be involved, software will be involved. I really love technology and helping people with tech. ~That's awesome. ~

Alyssa and Jordan: So tell us a little bit about your entry into loving this

[00:02:00] Loving this so much. ~What was that like?~

Ted: Yeah, so I think I've mistold my entry point. I used to say I started with my job at Network Kansas building dashboards for them.

But I actually just recently remembered it goes back further than that. It was when I was 19 years old. I was part of this flag football league that I'd created with a friend, like about 30 of my friends. And we were really into stats. And so I created these really elaborate spreadsheets so that we could keep track of our stats.

~For, for 30 of us that were boys ish men and we we did this for weeks and I would, ~I created a website, I'd publish the spreadsheet every week on the web~ like every week ~and everyone was waiting to see what their stats were. I had ~like ~really complicated, like quarterback ratings, ~like ~built into it.

And so that was my ~actually ~introduction to Microsoft Excel. A lot of people learn that for business, but I learned it for pleasure.

Alyssa and Jordan: I learned

Ted: ~yeah. ~Oh yeah. They don't know. There were pivot tables. There was all sorts of stuff. Like it was getting so gnarly. ~Yeah.~

Alyssa and Jordan: all sorts

Ted: yeah, I loved doing that. So that was my first thing of data.

It came by, I came by it naturally. It was never a job.

Alyssa and Jordan: that. So that was like natural, like when you started like getting into all that tech. Did you, [00:03:00] were you just figuring it out, like it was just like easy for you?

Ted: I mean, well, It's easy, anything that you can do that you love is

Alyssa and Jordan: I

Ted: So, I loved flag football, and I loved doing it with my friends, and I loved that they were waiting on me,

Alyssa and Jordan: that they were waiting on

Ted: think the pressure was like, this matters, ~like, like, like, ~and it didn't, let's be clear, it didn't, but it mattered to us, and there's something special about that, ~but ~I remember there was some, like, I was staying up late, and there was ~like, ~I'm in bed with my wife, and there was a little bit of conflict at 1am.

She's like, what are you doing? And I was like, I've gotta get this formula to work, cause I gotta publish it, cause the guys are waiting on me. And she's like, no, go to bed, like stop. But I just, I take things seriously, and I love that.

Alyssa and Jordan: ~like stop. But I just, I'm taking this seriously. ~I have heard that kind of a story from a few other people who have, and I feel like my journey is probably a little bit similar.

I didn't go into data because it was like, I want to go into data. It was a [00:04:00] genuine curiosity of other questions or other passions that kind of led me into it. ~And ~I feel like that is kind of common for those who like really love it and aren't looking at it from what does my career look like. Just more of, I'm interested let's see what happens here.

Ted: Yes, I've seen that a lot. I think there's that sort of self taught path then there's the other path of more technically taught and I think there's upsides and downsides to both I think, ~I think the, ~the self taught path, I love cranking on stuff nights and weekends when you have a day job, but you're like, I really want to work on whatever this is.

One time I mapped all of the car wrecks in Wichita. I used the data and ~I, ~that was like one of my first projects on Tableau. And I'll tell you, no one cares about that. ~Like I, I, ~I cared. My wife saw them. ~I~

Alyssa and Jordan: I mean, I'm kind of interested, yeah.

~Like, what could we solve~

Ted: Yeah, like I had, I like plotted all the density spots of where the most dangerous intersections were.

Later I realized, ~as I became more sophisticated, I was like, ~actually the most dangerous [00:05:00] spots ~were the most, ~were the highest volume of traffic ~were. ~And so I was like, I don't actually have the real data I need to know where the most dangerous ones because I don't have traffic volume. And so that's where that ended.

But I was working on that nights and weekends for fun. And you know, that's different. That's, that's not,

Alyssa and Jordan: So did you take any, ~so like, ~are you purely self taught in data or ~like, ~was this a part of any ~like ~education pathway that you went down or did you go back and, ~like, ~explore any certificates or anything like that?

Ted: I would say I'm mostly, yeah I didn't study this school. I studied entrepreneurship. Which I love starting stuff. All of my learning has come by problems that I'm interested in.

I've just learned one problem after another and once I conquer this one, I just find the next problem. ~So, ~the problem that really thrust me pretty deep into data was my work at Network Canvas. We had this, it was a non profit, we had this massive loan portfolio where we were creating gap financing for rural and underserved populations.

Entrepreneurs. It was really cool. [00:06:00] The software we used would spit out like an 8 point font spreadsheet ish table on 30 pages of a PDF. ~That's, that was the reporting we used. ~And so we had, basically you could think of like these 50 different loan buckets with eight or nine loans in each one, and you would just have to skim it to find yours.

And so I had, ~you ~10 buckets or communities that I was serving and I looked at that two times and I was like, I'm not doing this.

I'm just not, I can't.

Alyssa and Jordan: We don't have to live this way.

Ted: And the reality was what was kind of happening collectively on the team. No one wanted to look at it. So we were all not doing a great job.

~It was just, it was what it was. We just, and I was like, I want to work on this. So,~

I found the tool Tableau and I just started banging my head against it. And I mapped the car wrecks in the city of Wichita, I started looking for open data sources, but I said, hey, could you give this to me as a CSV?

They gave it to me ~that ~and ~I just ~I got some headway from my boss I was like, hey, I think this could be done better and he's like, well sure take a stab at it Eric Peterson ~I really ~he gave me [00:07:00] runway to like that wasn't my job wasn't my job I was just like this sucks and you're like, yeah, you're right And I was like, I think we could do better and I bet I took a month just hacking away at that to where I finally had something and I The mock up that I made, it's probably been ten years.

They still use today. And I left Network Kansas five years ago.

Alyssa and Jordan: ~I was going to say, when we met at Wichita Talks, And I'll give a little context after I ask this question.~

Were you at Network Kansas then?

Ted: ~I think I had, I think I had either I think that might have been in my transition. So ~I built dashboards for Network Kansas to where that became a huge part of my job there. As well as no code apps, I was also doing that. And then I started picking up clients on the side and it was pretty quick before I was like, Oh, this is actually just a business.

So I started the company Lion Graph. Yeah. I think, I think I had just left Network Kansas. They were still a huge customer for mine. Like I, I put on one hat and then they let me, they were my biggest customer for that first year. But yeah, I started just an analytics company building dashboards.

Alyssa and Jordan: That's right I forgot about LionGraph. That is so cool. ~Like, so, ~I don't know if I've told you this story but why I am such a huge Ted fan [00:08:00] is because,

However long ago it was, there used to be this like series here in Wichita called Wichitalks. And it was essentially ~like ~they would have individuals come and speak and it was ~like ~the 20 slides and 20 seconds kind of format.

Ted spoke about the power of data storytelling, and it was the first time, ~like, I had, ~I was in the middle of my, ~like, ~early journey of getting into data and analytics ~and just ~as a marketing person, which was very unfamiliar territory in that ~kind of ~sector of marketing and advertising. ~And I hadn't, and ~I had started to get this ~like ~feeling of ~like, ~it's not really just about reporting, it's about finding the story, ~like how can we do better with this?~

How can we create better experiences? ~And ~I wasn't ~like ~finding other people that had that same mentality until Ted walked up on stage. ~And I, like, ~I don't even remember the exact things that you said, but I have a very clear visual of you standing on that stage and ~like ~your slides in the background still in my head.

Because of how impactful that was for me to finally be like, [00:09:00] okay, I'm not crazy. Other people believe in this. ~And, ~and you were talking about how it's not just about looking at the numbers. It's about digging in deeper to really see the story. And I think you talked about problem solving through it and all of that. But yeah, that's why I've been a Ted fan ever since I beelined it. I was like, hi, we should meet, we should be friends. Let's go get coffee.

Ted: We did and we went and coffee right after, and I was like hey, I'm not speaking into the void.

Alyssa and Jordan: Yeah.

Ted: Let's go

Alyssa and Jordan: Hashtag

Ted fan club. ~Yeah, exactly.~

Ted: I think it stops right here. You guys are it. But,

Alyssa and Jordan: I doubt that. Yeah, we could find some others. Yeah. Please email hello at insightlypodcast. com. If you would like to be a part of our Ted fan club.

Ted: I don't remember if I said it in the Wichitalks but the one the thing repeated before and I love this I don't remember even where I've heard this but if you think about in English class when they you what a story is it starts with an exposition and then the rising action and then there's a climax and the resolution they use a line chart to explain what stories are. Line charts are stories [00:10:00] unfolding over time. And so you think of the Y axis, it's the degree of tension and the X axis is time going on.

And so the rising action is the line chart moving up, getting more tense, getting more tense. And the climax is the top of that line chart where it's like, that's the climax. We've made it. And then the resolution comes back down and you can see that story. But every line chart I design, I'm asking what story does it tell and how can I accentuate the climax and the resolution and the tension that exists in the line chart because when a line chart is going down, sometimes that's really scary.

But if the line chart represents threats to our organization, it's fantastic. We're thrilled by it. But if it's revenue, it's devastating. And so there's, those stories are baked in and how people respond to that. That's just always been really important to me is that these are not just data points. These are stories that we respond to and have to act on.

Alyssa and Jordan: Absolutely. And I think that is so important, especially like at, I think that companies and [00:11:00] now ~like ~data analytics is a career path.

It wasn't really taught in this manner, ~like ~when we were all in school. But it's becoming a lot more familiar within companies. But I think that aspect of it's not just about a chart to give you the numbers. ~I mean, ~I've looked at reports before where it's like, okay, if you ~just like ~look at it visually, these charts and graphs look pretty, or I can ~like ~skim over them, but then when you're really looking at it, it's like, what story are you actually trying to tell me with this?

And I think that is incredibly important to keep in mind ~in that process of ~The way that you're visualizing the data, the way that you're trying to convey that story, the context of where that data is coming from and what it's supposed to be like helping you with.

Sometimes I think that gets forgotten when we report on things and, and especially if you're going into, you know, an office with the C Suite and you put things in front of them, that's when like a lot of distrust and like credibility can be lost as if [00:12:00] they're skimming it and they can't understand what you're trying to say to them and It's just a one sheet then then you're going to get a lot more questions, and you're gonna get answers in and direction Well, we've I feel like we've seen so many companies that are doing reporting just to do reporting Yeah, it checks some box that they feel is an obligation And I think the same is true.

It's like no one looks at it. No one cares about it. And so it's all this work that someone is probably manually, ~you know, doing, ~combining spreadsheets to produce this report just because it's some box checker. And I feel like a lot of times it's like, what business question are you trying to answer?

That's where the story starts, right? It's like, what is most prevalent and burning, what's keeping you up at night that you need answers to? And that's often where we start is, you know, Let's start there, and then that builds the story. And a lot of times, that's just like, we're going to pull back one layer, and then that, ~you know, ~turns into something beautiful, but a lot of times when it's just something that feels obligatory, or [00:13:00] just, oh, we're a business, we should do this~ you don't, ~you don't capture the beauty of what the story, the data can tell you, ~or the, I mean, ~the beauty can be in the threats, or the things that maybe are scary, but we need to know about so that we can address them in just that way.

Pretend like they're not there. And that makes me curious, Ted, you know, what you're saying suggests to me, like, you really believe in the power of data, right? In just the stories it can tell, but also the strategic decisions it can enable for businesses, and especially working a lot in the non profit sector.

When and how did you really see that come to life or develop that conviction? ~I think I would say some of~

Ted: ~that, ~that story with Network Kansas, one of the, that was actually very transformative.

~Yeah. ~There's like two or three things that came from that that changed the way we approached those loan portfolios. The first was that everyone engaged with the data more because it was more accessible. The PDF was not accessible, it was not easy to use, not easy to digest, you couldn't make sense of it.

So first off it was, we could move it and put it into [00:14:00] people's hands. And so what we found was there was actually an untapped desire They wanted that. They wanted the data. They weren't ignoring it because they didn't care. They were ignoring it because it didn't speak to them. And so by customizing it in a way that you could flip through all eight of your buckets and say, Okay, here's where this portfolio is, and here's where this portfolio is.

That created a sense of everyone engaged with the data more. The next thing that happened was we were able to create benchmarks and context. That 30 page PDF with 8 point font, you're just scrolling down row by row. You're not able to digest visually a sense of, is this good or bad? It just is. It just is.

And ~that, ~so what do you do with it? ~There's, ~there's really no action you could take. There were maybe a few things they were trying to pick out of like, this loan is behind past due or something. Maybe you could pick that out line by line, but how many loans past due is bad? Like It's a long portfolio, like some are gonna [00:15:00] be bad.

How many is too many? We didn't, we're not gonna ask any of those questions. We're just like, that's bad. It was very binary. Bad, not

Alyssa and Jordan: ~Yeah.~ But still, we don't have an action to take off of it otherwise.

Ted: so then if you say, okay, I've got eight portfolios, This portfolio, 20 percent are past due. This portfolio, 0 percent are past due.

And now we're like, okay, this portfolio is doing better than this one. And then you start creating benchmarks. You say, well, we have a hundred of these portfolios across. It's saying, what percentage of them are past due? ~What's a, ~What's a reference point that we can use across the board? And where are the, where are the challenging areas that we need to spend more resources or effort to improve them?

And over time we started abstracting more and more to where they are managing I think thousands of loans now and they're able to do it in a really novel way for non profits of inside these really rural communities or underserved communities. They're able to bring loan capital in a way that's compelling and innovative and they're able to keep tabs on it because they have reference points and benchmarks and they can build expectations and the [00:16:00] last thing that happens is instead of just that data living in their organization They pushed it out and shared it with those communities.

Not only that They said, and we'll show you how you compare to the rest. And they created this upward cycle of competition of saying, we want to have the best portfolio. ~And the, ~as they got better portfolios, they got more resources and it unlocked all of these opportunities. It raised the quality of the entire portfolio that was always there.

The data was there the whole time, but it wasn't distributed in a way that they could use it. And I think ~that's what, That, to me, ~that arc, that took years, that didn't happen overnight, that took years, but that raised the boats for everyone, with a resource that was there, just not put to use.

Alyssa and Jordan: What I love about that is that it didn't just create impact and efficiency and action within the organization, but it had the ripple effect that went down to who is the recipient of, ~you know, ~this loan portfolio, what are they doing [00:17:00] with it?

How does this reflect in their community? And that is a really great example of developing a data culture that exists beyond the walls that it lives in. Like it brought the communities into it as well.

Ted: Yes.

Alyssa and Jordan: That's super cool. ~Yeah. Yeah. ~How did you, was there any pushback or how did you, how was the internal data culture created or was that like within people?

It just wasn't, there was no outlet for them to.

Ted: ~Yeah, it was really, ~people don't like to do tedious things.

Alyssa and Jordan: Agreed.

Ted: And if, if you, if you give them an easier way, you are going with the grain. And like, honestly, all of it felt like it was with the grain. No one liked looking at that PDF. And when we gave them a better option, they're like, this is great. And what ended up happening is they said, could it do this? And could it do this? And so now you wouldn't even recognize what I first built because we've added so many layers of complexity to building these benchmarks and reference [00:18:00] points and understanding and just additional context, this deepening of the context for ~all of those, ~all of that work that kind of built, but it all happened organically.

There was no like From my perspective, one was like, we're gonna be a data organization. That was never uttered in that organization. They became one by necessity, ~by, by the making it, ~by doing, wanting, everyone wants to do good work. I'm really convinced of that and they saw this as a way they could do better work.

I think the one thing where there might have been not even resistance, but some consideration, was that next jump where they shared it. It's like, it's saying, we're going to be open with this and ~we're going to let this, ~we're going to be transparent with it. I love it philosophically. I love it because it's saying, essentially this, you could think of it as there's all these small kind of nonprofit organizations and there's this one big funder.

You could see this complexity in the power dynamics maybe in saying we're judging you. We're judging your [00:19:00] performance. We're holding these carrots from you. And this is not true of Network Kansas, but I'm just saying, I'm painting a picture of how nonprofits work.

Alyssa and Jordan: And that's similar to ~like I think ~what we see in ~like ~sales teams and ~like ~B2B type organizations, ~you know ~where the data's there but ~then ~when the data is shared with sales teams ~like sometimes ~it can be presented as we're watching you, Or judging you. Instead of it being a like a collaborative, like hey, look what we have to share with you.

Ted: Yes, ~I and I think, so, ~I think there was a little bit of, we wanted to make sure we didn't embarrass anyone.

That it was really, we were actually very careful of, we created neutral benchmarks. So you couldn't see what everyone else, you couldn't see everyone else's portfolio, but you could see your own and how it compares.

And we really couched it with, this is a tool for you. It would be withholding to not share it. ~We, ~we want to share this and ~you, ~we want you to have the best tools possible to manage these resources as best you can for your community. And I would say it was overwhelmingly appreciated. And then it led to [00:20:00] another layer where the community members were like, could we see this?

And could we see this? And could we, and it added even more context and nuance and depth and richness to the data.

Alyssa and Jordan: That's so cool. So, I mean, I think you've shared offline with us about just your passion for non profits and just the gap there is in technology A need for technology but maybe a gap in knowledge or knowhow or even for someone wanting to get in there and just kind of help figure it out.

I'd love to hear just kind of ~your, ~how your passion has grown for that and what you see as the biggest like opportunity in that space.

Ted: Man, ~I I don't, I think it, ~I didn't plan on this. It just sort of ~came by, it ~came by naturally. ~Like, I, my first, ~my wife and I started a non profit in 2012.

Alyssa and Jordan: Oh, I didn't know that.

Ted: ~Yeah, ~yeah, we started, it's called Eight Oaks.

It's in Ghana. It's a rehabilitation home for children.

Alyssa and Jordan: Oh wow.

Ted: we just hit, I think we're at 10 or 11 years just now.

Alyssa and Jordan: ~now. ~Wow, congratulations. ~That's a big~

Ted: Yeah. The girls were like six to 10 and now they're in high school and man, it's freaking crazy. It's incredible.

Alyssa and Jordan: Do you go over there?

Ted: Yeah, I was there last October. We try to go once [00:21:00] a year.

We just had three kids.

Alyssa and Jordan: three Haha. Yeah, that happens.

Ted: So it's happening less, but yeah, ~it's, ~it's, that's really cool. That was not on the career path. That just sort of, you know, happened. And then I started at Network Kansas because I knew I wanted to be an entrepreneur, but that was a non profit that served entrepreneurs.

I was like, this is perfect. And then after that, I was like, okay, I'm ready. I'll be an entrepreneur. I went out on my own, starting an analytics company. I merged with Moonbase because I needed custom software as well. That, like, that's my career trajectory. But as I was building at LionGraph and Moonbase, the people who kept coming to me were non profits.

And I think it's because the relationships I made at Network Kansas. Maybe it's just because I like them and I just genuinely, ~they're doing, ~they're doing the real work. Like they're doing, ~it's, ~it's all uphill for non profits and they have to do less with more constantly. ~They have ~They're faced with infinite need and limited resources.

That's a ~challenging, ~challenging thing to be in and I just, in my mind, I just don't get as much energy. Helping a for profit company [00:22:00] optimize and become more effective not that I don't ~I ~love solving problems I'll throw myself at lots of problems when you do it with a nonprofit There's ~like ~a legit impact on the other side of that ~if you can become ~if you can help them become more effective They can become more impactful.

They can use the money that they're given more resourcefully more effectively And I'm like man, this is all upside. I would love to do it, but ~They struggle. ~software is, is frustrating for nonprofits. They're getting very tired, they're worn out, and I'm, ~I've been, ~like, the last six months I've met with so many nonprofit leaders trying to understand

~where is,~

what's the root of this frustration?

And I don't think I've gotten to the bottom of it, but I'm starting to build some hypotheses of why they are overlooked. And

Alyssa and Jordan: shared your hypothesis? Are you tracking this in a spreadsheet?

Ted: Yes.

yeah. Oh, I've got charts. Oh, I've, I've, loads of them. I, I think there's some there's a few things. And this is not just unique to non profits.

Software's moving really fast.

Like, in the 90s it used to be sold in a [00:23:00] box at a store. Like, you used to buy software in a box at a store.

Alyssa and Jordan: Crazy. You would get the internet in the mail. Yeah. Remember ? You had to put the A-O-L-C-D in to get it.

Ted: yeah, this is not that long ago. Like we sound like we're 80 years old.

Alyssa and Jordan: Right? Yeah.

Ted: Talking about the good old days when like you could buy a Coke for five cents.

Like, that's what we sound like.

that's

Alyssa and Jordan: that's how fast it moves, right?

Ted: fast it moves. So everyone's a little winded, you know, like I'm, I, it's natural to feel behind. But I think just recently with the sort of burst of SaaS software as a service, It used to be, when you sold it in a box Windows 95, when that came out, you know, it went from Windows 95 to Windows 98.

You had three years to breathe before you had to sell that next operating system. Well now when it's, everything's a monthly . Like, it'll have a mediocre event, a mediocre event knockoff of Eventbrite and a mediocre payment processor and a mediocre accounting, what have you.

And it locks you into that because you're already [00:24:00] deeply invested. I think that doesn't work. But I also think the platforms like Salesforce or Zoho, I think those, that one stuff shop is if you need a implementation consultant and you have to spend like hundreds of thousands of dollars for it, ~I'm like, that's, ~there's probably something ~up ~upstream that's an issue.

Like maybe the process is too complicated. Like I don't know if nonprofits need that huge of an investment. I'm working on some sort of philosophy where the best nonprofit tech stack is a flexible one. with interconnected parts that can be swapped out every three years. But there's a sort of an overarching data model or philosophy that holds them together there, but they're tied together with ropes.

Nothing's in brick, nothing's in stone.

Alyssa and Jordan: More modular together.

Ted: loosely connected, and you hold everything. You have to hold everything loose. I think people want to marry the software. It's just a friend. It's

Alyssa and Jordan: I think ~the sales plat like ~the sales model for a lot of the platforms is that.

Like if you, especially with CRM systems, like you mentioned Salesforce, [00:25:00] Zoho, HubSpot. HubSpot's real good at doing this, where it's like, Okay, now you've already gotten involved with putting all of your customers and companies that you work with right in there. That alone was a lot of manual work, most likely.

You're now getting all of your ~like ~business development, donor engagement, sales teams, whatever, involved in actually inputting that data. Also another hurdle that you've had to cross. Then when you get into like the modular components, then it's just additional. Increase in monthly subscription, increase in the amount of training that you need to have, increase in the amount of time that you need to put into it just to develop a system that works for you internally.

And we've talked about this a lot where that you have to go all in. Like you, you're, you have the mentality that you have to go all in on any of these platforms to truly maximize it. Like I [00:26:00] use HubSpot as the example because HubSpot used to be a lot more flexible in the way that you're talking about it.

Right. It's probably not great for their business model to be that flexible anymore. But if you start with their free CRM and you want some basic sales automations included, well, now you have to upgrade to the sales. Tier. Well, now you want to take those sales automations, but then also couple it with some essential, basic marketing automation, you know, type stuff that like email marketing automation.

Well, now you have to get the marketing tier. Okay. Now you really want it to be a lot like more automated and seamless across sales and marketing. Well, guess what? Now you have to get to the enterprise suite. Otherwise you're in that data silo and manual polling and reviewing. ~with every tier level that you're getting.~

And so I like the, that philosophy of connected, but not in a rigid way, because I [00:27:00] think what we end up seeing a lot in at least like corporate world is when that scenario comes into play where you need that flexibility to grow and evolve and you really can't get married into a system. They go the custom route and that's fine if you have the team and the brain power to fully like develop that and make it what you need. But then that becomes years in the making before you actually get to start using it. And as you mentioned, like technology is just moving so quickly at the time, by the time that's ready to go, is it still what you needed to begin with or does that job just become evolving constantly before you actually really get to use the power of it?

Yeah. And I think there's also an issue at ~like ~the analytics layer. Yeah. of all of that. Because as things are changing, that makes reporting and visualization really frustrating because if, you know, they're, if they're switching every year or they need to switch every year or whatever the case may be, data's coming in from one place, but now it's no longer.

And those things aren't connected [00:28:00] or it's in one system that gives you silos or doesn't produce the reports natively that you need. Then people get extra frustrated because they can't see what's even happening in all of these systems. And it's so disparate. I mean, either way. ~I mean, ~it's hard either way, right?

Ted: I never blame anyone for chasing the one-stop shop. It sounds so appealing. I've just, I've never seen it work.. But I understand why. And I'm not even saying this sort of loosely connected thing, this has trade offs too. I think everything about technology is trade offs, and you have to just pick which trade offs you can live with. I think the one that I'm, what I see people choose is software that's not for them.

And they try and, like, shoehorn it in. And I think, if it says enterprise, and you're a non profit, run. Like, that's not you. ~That's not you.~

Alyssa and Jordan: And you're gonna have extra zeros on that monthly subscription to price tag is not really friendly. Yeah, enterprise almost automatically means more.

Ted: But ~I think, ~I think maybe also the business model [00:29:00] for these software companies, the gravity is towards larger companies.

That's where success comes from. More users. If it's a per user per month, they want more users. If you're a five person nonprofit, ~you are going to be, ~you're at the bottom of their ~like ~priority list. And so what ends up happening is I've never seen a monthly feature release where the company comes on and says, Hey, we took away these 10 features that were not popular.

And now the app is more focused and precise. ~Never. It's all bloat. ~It adds and adds and adds. ~And I, in my opinion, more than the cost. ~Complexity is the enemy. And these software systems, the arc of it, that's why I say like three years. They only get more complex. They never get simpler. There's very few companies, Basecamp is maybe one where they've restrained themselves.

They've been so disciplined to not constantly add new features, but they're not VC backed. They don't have pressure. They're not trying to IPO. They don't have to hit ridiculous growth goals. So they can stay small and focused. That's very rare though in software. Most software, you want to catch it on like the thinnest, First like three to five [00:30:00] years and then once they start talking about their enterprise layer You leave and ~you go ~you go to the next one in and that requires a flexibility that Does not quite jive with the nonprofit culture.

I'm around yet, but I think if they can embrace change They'll be better for it instead of trying to hold on to things in a white knuckle

Alyssa and Jordan: You know, I think, ~one, ~we could have a whole other episode just on this topic because a lot of what you're hitting on is very common that we hear in the business and corporate world as well~ but the thing that I was just thinking about is that Oh, and it just actually flew right out of my head, so ignore what I was just getting ready to say.~

~I mean, you just gave me, like, so many different ideas with what you were talking about with, oh, here it is. ~There might be something within this philosophy ~that you're, ~that you're really, like, working around in that change is the only constant? ~And knowing that, ~and I talk about this a lot with clients when we're just talking about ~just ~marketing strategy in general.

Do not get married to tactics.

Do not get married to tools. Social is going to change just as rapidly. It's technology, right? Like the platforms are going to change rapidly. Consumer [00:31:00] behavior because of that will change, which means that you also have to change. Is there an opportunity actually to take a step back from ~like, The, ~the tech implementation and the build side of it and actually help organizations with that mentality of how do you develop really good systems and processes now around ~like ~the data and insights and the collection that you want to have over time, but build that system in a way that it actually doesn't really matter what tool you're using.

That if a pivot needs to occur, you're already equipped with, we already knew this was coming. We are not going to be nervous about it. We're going to adjust because we already have the mentality, the process, the know how to shift a lot easier than if we're in that mentality of, Okay, well I'm not enamored with Zoho anymore and Salesforce with all of its add ons is like wooing me in that [00:32:00] direction.

So, But are we going to do it? What's that migration look like? You know, those are where all of that, like where the mentality ends up going. If we drop that, the tactic and the tool out of it and just focus on what are the outcomes, what is the desire for our 10 year strategic plan? Does not matter what road we're walking on as long as we're going in that right direction.

Is there something within helping organizations with that that could be successful for that next step in, like, actual tech implementation.

I think ~that I, ~it has to happen. I don't know if it can. But ~it, ~it has to happen, because I think you can't be at the mercy of 10 different software companies release cycle. You just can't live like that.

Ted: You have to have someone in the organization saying, Hey, I know they are saying you can use our software like da da da da da da with this long list of features. That's what they say. Here's the 4 percent of this software we use, and why we use it, and the function it provides, and the reason it's [00:33:00] really important.

And you just have to ignore the rest. The bigger the tool, the more they have to ignore. Those are just basically potholes that they can step in. I think of Asana. It's a beautiful tool. It's a beautiful I love Asana. But they're, they're post prime. prime. They're post prime. They IPO'd, they're enterprised.

When they launched, it used to be projects and tasks. You think about every project manager software, it's projects and tasks. It's the same pattern, same relationship. Projects are big, tasks are small. You think about this. Asana will let you sub task a task. Okay, so that's three layers deep. I think you can infinitely sub task.

Alyssa and Jordan: You can. I have Asana for Bondfire Strategy. And I got it because all I needed was a checklist for client projects, where we're at, tracking like our budget and our time and all of that.

~Like ~I just needed a place that wasn't a notebook, right?

Ted: A list.

Alyssa and Jordan: It is too much though. And my Julia, our account coordinator at Bondfire and she [00:34:00] has totally like transformed the way that we use Asana. She's done a great job with it. But even when she came on board, I just looked at her and I was like, I don't even know if this is the right tool.

I don't know if we are right for, you know, Asana. I don't know if we're maximizing its capability. I don't even know if we need to maximize it.

Ted: it. Probably not.

Alyssa and Jordan: Like here the five, these are the five things that I actually need. In order to feel confident that we're delivering the service that we need to deliver to the clients, that we're holding ourselves accountable, and that I have a way to track against billing.

~Like, literally it, you know? And, I mean, she's done a great job, but there's, ~I have the mentality sometimes, like, when you start looking at your subscriptions and your business costs and stuff, like, it does always come back to me on, do we actually need to be spending that? For the features that we're actually using, knowing that 95 percent of what other bells and whistles they've brought on board, I don't even need to touch.

There's no reason. And it's just more time for us to touch those that we don't need to spend. But inevitably the one feature that you do want requires you to upgrade. Exactly.

Ted: Yeah. ~I think ~I think [00:35:00] saying we're the boss

not the software, I think that's that's a huge mental shift is like no, you don't tell us what features we need. I'll tell you which features I would like and then we're gonna ignore the rest. ~But I can't when I think of that infinite sub tasks. ~The purpose of that tool is to allow for collaboration.

And so that we don't lose track of things.

Alyssa and Jordan: Well guess what, I don't even know where half of my subtasks are, okay?

Ted: Yeah,

they baked in a giant cliff and they said, here you go. And they didn't put any railings on it or anything. And they just said, walk here as fast as you can.

And I'm, I'm terrified. And then a few years ago, think about this. It's a hierarchy, projects, tasks, subtasks that go infinitely. It's an infinite Russian doll going down. They added a new layer above projects called portfolios. They added, which are groups of projects. And I, I, my mind burst when they did this and I understood why they did it.

I understood why. How many layers? many layers do we need to run our six person organization? How many layers?

Alyssa and Jordan: And there are teams. You know, and so it's like, so [00:36:00] it's like teams are associated to portfolios and portfolios include projects and projects include tasks and subtasks and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

And then you have all these other things that you want to include, like, you know, estimated time, actual time or like dependencies on like scheduling. I mean, it's more than a full time job. And by the way, there are just two people at Bondfire. And it, and when I think about It's important, it is important work for us to like keep track of things and ~again like ~Julia's done such a fantastic job, she's ~like ~really boiled it down to ~like ~this is all that we really need to work with here and we're still working out a few kinks but miles ahead of where we were just three months ago but ~like ~it is mind boggling when ~it's, ~it's just two of us.

Ted: Yes, well you

you, you said, you started with, I need a list of

Alyssa and Jordan: that's it.

Ted: ~of. And you got that and 10, 000 other things that you weren't asking for.~

But now that they're there, you kind of feel like, well, maybe I should use them, ~maybe. ~And now the software is taking you the road.

Alyssa and Jordan: I'm the boss. That is my [00:37:00] takeaway from this conversation. Hold it up in your computer. No, I'm the boss.

Ted: Honestly, if I had one message for non-profits. Be the boss of your software. Don't let it tell you

Alyssa and Jordan: so don't say

Ted: All right, hold up.

Alyssa and Jordan: Ted, if you had one thing to tell non profits that you'd want to leave them with, and honestly, for profits too, ~what's your ~What's your one thing?

Ted: ~I think~ I think it's be the boss of your software.

Alyssa and Jordan: Be the boss!

Ted: I think because they're releasing features so much, that's not for us. If you think about how they pick those features, they go to the forums and they see what most people are complaining about. Most people aren't on the forums. The people on the forums are the power users.

The power users aren't us. ~They want, ~They need portfolios. And they need infinite subtasks. I don't know what they're doing, but they need that. But they believe in their bones, they need that. And they've got a hundred others commenting on that forum. And the engineers are like, yes, they need that. We have evidence for it.

What they ~don't, ~aren't able to make the trade off, the software company's not making the trade off is that 80 percent [00:38:00] of us who aren't the power users, who just need a list, we're getting thrown around by these needs and it's wearing us out. We're not churning, we're still there, but we're tired and it's having negative effects for us that the software company's not feeling.

So I would say take it back. I've seen a lot of non profits like adopt Slack. Slack's a cool tool. If you adopt that without some thinking behind why we adopted Slack, it's actually a tyrant, and it will destroy you. We don't, no one, no one needs, yeah, no one needs 24 7 access to their boss. No one needs that.

You don't need push notifications on your boss. Like, that's an 8 5 thing. No one needs instant response to almost anything. That's rare. The only time you need an instant response to something is like, Hey, I'm locked out. Could you help me in? Like, that's a great use for Slack or, Hey, could you start the Zoom?

I'm five minutes late. [00:39:00] Perfect. I love having Slack for that. A lot of that probably should just be email slow. And if you don't set expectations for communication around what we do is we unleash Slack. Some people are like, I have instant access to everyone in this organization. And some people are like, I'll get to it when I get to it.

And some people are like, I'm never logging into that. That's not going to help anyone. All we've done is just exhaust everyone and created more miscommunication. The thing that was supposed to help us communicate is creating more miscommunications, more misunderstandings. We have to create policy. We have to create policy.

Or at least a culture that says, ~this is, ~we're bringing this tool in because we have this problem. So and so continues to get locked out every single morning. And email is not responsive enough to let them in the door. We need something instant. Or, what other other problem you have where you need instant access to someone else?

~Which I should say, we It is rare. ~You should probably email and wait a day like that. ~That's there's, ~There's nothing that urgent. And if you're responding that urgently, you're diminishing your culture. This is where software is doing more harm than good. Like we're [00:40:00] not, we're just saying they have Slack.

They have Slack. They have Slack. We need Slack. And we didn't think about what problem it was actually solving. And it actually wasn't even a problem. We just threw Slack at something that didn't exist and we created more problems. So we got to be the boss. We got to say, this is what we need it for.

Alyssa and Jordan: Yeah, and a whole nother rabbit trail is like what burnout and other problems is having access to your work all the time.

Yeah, I don't want to get into that.

So I wrote down this is go. We're totally you're coming back Ted We're having this conversation again round two round two. Well, thank you Ted for joining us And as always if you have any questions if this brought up anything for you Reach out to us via email at hello at insightlypodcast. com. We'd love to answer your questions.

We're collecting questions as we go so that we can do hopefully a mailbag episode. But please reach out. We'd love to talk to you, answer your questions and we'll see you next time.

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